tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post7178354328584683035..comments2024-02-07T03:12:59.031-05:00Comments on Blogenspiel: A conversation I'd missedAnother Damned Medievalisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05231085915472400163noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-47292209107591012732007-02-19T14:01:00.000-05:002007-02-19T14:01:00.000-05:00The first course I taught on we had persistent pro...The first course I taught on we had persistent problems with the students, most of whom were doing the course part-time and were thus balancing it against jobs and so on, not having found time to do the reading that was supposed to underpin the seminars. One of my groups was much worse than the other (possibly because the second class got an extra hour in the library...) and there came the day when none of them had actually read the primary material for the class.<BR/><BR/>Now I was new at this and probably could have handled it better. As it was I waxed slightly wroth and asked how they expected to get anything out of the classes if they didn't find out what they were supposed to be about. One guy in particular took offence and tore me off a strip for being disrespectful to my elders, at which point I probably should have dropped it. Instead I put that same question to him individually and he told me that he wasn't doing the reading for this course because he only had time to do it for one of his two and he thought the teaching on my one sucked so badly it wasn't worth doing and again got very angry about being told off by someone maybe twenty-five years his junior for not doing his homework.<BR/><BR/>Finally sense caught hold of me and rather than ask why he'd turned up at all with that attitude, I calmed down and tried to rescue the class by impromptu double-speed lecture, but not before said party had stormed out. He moved classes and did relatively well with the other teacher, and the ones who remained got a lot better after that first term.<BR/><BR/>So what I'm saying is, "hey--you could have handled that so very much worse, as I can prove and document" :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-78564284721378424712007-02-14T01:21:00.000-05:002007-02-14T01:21:00.000-05:00Urk! That's awful. I would have been totally flo...Urk! That's awful. I would have been totally floored, and it sounds as if you handled the situation with grace and dignity. Oddly enough, although I've never had quite such an extreme example as you describe, the biggest challenges I've had to my authority have come not from _young_ men, but from men closer to my own age. I've had two or three quite unpleasant situations with men in their thirties or mid forties who perhaps had difficulty accepting authority from a woman of their own generation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-28778590100428875562007-02-13T23:01:00.000-05:002007-02-13T23:01:00.000-05:00I'm at www.carmenbutcher.com. Thanks for a great d...I'm at www.carmenbutcher.com. Thanks for a great discussion!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-42579644030039769882007-02-13T22:58:00.000-05:002007-02-13T22:58:00.000-05:00I definitely understand what you're describing her...I definitely understand what you're describing here. I teach at a small liberal arts college, and I had to discuss "attitude" recently with upperclassmen. I don't mind "attitude," but I do mind disrespect that crushes the healthy learning environment. I will call disruptive students into my office as if just for a chat and will tell them my views on their less-than-helpful behavior. I respect my students and expect them to respect me. You sound just the same! I think the one comment about telling a student--"The classroom isn't the place for that kind of conversation" is a good approach. I am filing that for future use. I also agree that I prefer boisterous students with opinions over those who just sit there. Best wishes! (And good luck to us all who are tilling the field of higher education diligently!)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-42751973693434641772007-02-12T06:56:00.000-05:002007-02-12T06:56:00.000-05:00I'll underscore previous comments - you were ambus...I'll underscore previous comments - you were ambushed and it's more than difficult to plan for that. And, yes, the males will challenge you to your face where the females will just gossip about you but probably not confront you. <BR/><BR/>Now, the next step is to document all of this - including the email you sent to the student and any other notes you need to make (primarily rephrasing your blog entry and putting in a Word document you can file electronically and in print). And, then, if you do all of this, the student will not subject you to another outburst. On the other hand, if something goes up the food chain, you were covered. (I hate to say it but these types of things can filter to the dean and the story will have changed multiple times by then . . . just CYA!)<BR/><BR/>Another contributing factor is that this is your first year at the institution and just as students appear to be more immature, they are treating you like a first year high school teacher and seeing exactly what you will take off of them. Problems that used to only exist in high school have now permeated up - esp. as society is giving young people the impression that they are owed something rather than having to prove themselves. You put that on top of the research that says we know that their brain is not fully developed and that young men are exercising all of their muscles to test all of their limits . . . And I agree that your not shouting back at him will mean most of the class will be on your "side" in the sense that they are there to be in class and not be part of an unnecessary melodrama.<BR/><BR/>Handling it with grace without being run over is only something the rest of us could have hoped to have done - you never know because it's rarely something you can anticipate.Kelly in Kansashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345236866213138914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-40195024272326194192007-02-11T16:17:00.000-05:002007-02-11T16:17:00.000-05:00Thanks, all! BTW, I did e-mail the student and po...Thanks, all! BTW, I did e-mail the student and pointed out that: I had treated him with much more respect than he had treated me; what he perceived as criticism was not impolite, and was necessary information for the class, if they wanted to do well, and that he was bright, but out of line -- class time is never the place for that kind of thing. We'll see what happens.Another Damned Medievalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05231085915472400163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-73997291696767160502007-02-11T15:34:00.000-05:002007-02-11T15:34:00.000-05:00Yikes, ADM, that's total horseshit. No student sh...Yikes, ADM, that's total horseshit. No student should ever chew you out in front of your class.<BR/><BR/>I had a similar incident a few years ago while still teaching at the big H. I informed the miscreant that he was welcome to come to my office hours to talk the matter of his grade and my comments over but that the topic was NOT open to discussion in class. He continued, and I told him to leave. He was so stunned that he left.<BR/><BR/>After he left the class I told my other students that I was sure that college-age kids were too old for kindergarten discipline. They laughed, and my evals were fine.Rebeccahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08912365375190669226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-89115925506040275852007-02-11T15:18:00.000-05:002007-02-11T15:18:00.000-05:00Whoa! That's completely crazy! I'm even having s...Whoa! That's completely crazy! I'm even having sympathy anger for you. I can't imagine what I would have done if I was in that situation - I would have been astounded that anyone would say something like that in "public" (i.e., in the classroom). I do think it's a trend in students now. I think it's still important to say something to the student about the environment in which they voice their objections. I think this student should know that if they feel this hurt/angry about something that they can discuss it with you, but that they need to afford you the proper respect in the classroom. It's that simple - class, race, gender aside - you're the professor and they are the student. You respect them and they need to respect you AND their other classmates. This is something that probably couldn't have been productively said at that moment (b/c it sounds like he was spoiling for a fight), but I think you can still say it in a private meeting with that student. He needs to hear it and understand that that kind of behavior absolutely will not cut it! As for your other students, I totally agree with jb - if I had seen that in one of my classes and heard how cooly and calmly you responded, I would be completely horrified about and totally uninfluenced by his behavior. <BR/><BR/>Ugh - I'm so sorry this happened! Keep us updated if you discuss it with him further!medieval womanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17278854285443306227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-51959099112719112642007-02-11T15:12:00.000-05:002007-02-11T15:12:00.000-05:00P.S. My last paragraph went on a tangent. And it d...P.S. My last paragraph went on a tangent. And it doesn't excuse the fact that a student was so rude to you. That sucks. <BR/><BR/>But I do bet the other students hate him.Terminal Degreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16523014953046778630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-51083505111560577572007-02-11T15:11:00.000-05:002007-02-11T15:11:00.000-05:00I've had that happen twice this semester, both tim...I've had that happen twice this semester, both times from angry freshmen male students. I do think it's an authority thing. One of my friends here is a psych prof who specializes in adolescent/developmental psych, and she tells me that the 18 year old brain isn't done growing yet, especially in males. In other words, they still have issues to work out.<BR/><BR/>I've had this happen before in the classroom, and I finally memorized a quick response to nip such behavior in the bud: "I'm sorry you're frustrated. But the classroom isn't an appropriate place to air those concerns. I would be happy to talk to you before or after class or during my office hours. But right now, we're going to move on." The Laser Beam Stare usually accompanies that last sentence. <BR/><BR/>An older-and-wiser female prof recently told me that she still gets challenges to her authority by young males. She's learned over the years that if a student is a jerk to her, he's usually a jerk to his fellow classmates, too, and they usually hate him. <BR/><BR/>Taking her comment a step further--if you stomp on the jerk, his classmates will usually love you for it. <BR/><BR/>I too agree that students are more confrontational than they used to be. On the other hand, the students I first taught a decade ago were so passionless and bland--so unwilling to commit to ideas or even to a major--that I prefer this slightly more energetic and confrontational bunch, because at least they have opinions now and then. :)Terminal Degreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16523014953046778630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-12223458789739665422007-02-11T12:32:00.000-05:002007-02-11T12:32:00.000-05:00Thanks! I'm still trying to figure out ways to ke...Thanks! I'm still trying to figure out ways to keep it from happening again. Many of my colleagues have noted our students are a bit more contentious these days. <BR/><BR/>By the way, I've added you both to my blogroll. Hope you don't mind!Another Damned Medievalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05231085915472400163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-5918422274800832662007-02-11T10:48:00.000-05:002007-02-11T10:48:00.000-05:00I'm sorry you had to go through that--it sounds aw...I'm sorry you had to go through that--it sounds awful. I'm not sure what I would do.<BR/><BR/>For what it's worth, back when I was an undergrad, I was in a class where a student did pretty much the same thing to the professor, only she also targeted some of our classmates in her diatribe. Some of the students she alluded to weren't, well, the most pleasant people, but as far as the professor went, I couldn't imagine where she was coming from. Maybe to make up for that student's rant, I went out of my way to give the professor positive feedback--and my conversations with classmates afterwards suggested that a lot of them did the same. The only person who looked bad that day was the angry student.<BR/><BR/>In short--those students who disagree with the offender, and I'll bet that they are many, will most likely not switch to his side as the result of this. More likely, they'll empathize with you and recognize that this guy was way out of line.heu mihihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08529298049179816825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-50135873281598707062007-02-11T10:46:00.000-05:002007-02-11T10:46:00.000-05:00You were ambushed and thus gobsmacked; whatever wo...You were ambushed and thus gobsmacked; whatever word describes it, nobody can respond when attacked out of the blue in that way.undinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05589384016564587214noreply@blogger.com