tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post9170053102581488451..comments2024-02-07T03:12:59.031-05:00Comments on Blogenspiel: On the Outcomes and Assessments BorgAnother Damned Medievalisthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05231085915472400163noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-59043398488692308462009-09-01T10:19:48.660-04:002009-09-01T10:19:48.660-04:00I understand Clio Bluestocking's hesitation at...I understand Clio Bluestocking's hesitation at feeding data to the accrediting agencies but given the realities of accountability that the outside world is expecting of not only taxpayer-funded institutions but also taxpayer-funded programs at private institutions, we have two options. We can determine our own outcomes that provide that data or we can have them "given" to us from the outside. <br /><br />At our institution, our office of institutional research is bending over backwards to try not to intrude on us while still keeping the university in compliance with state and federal regulators. However, they can't do this forever as they need our discipline expertise to make the entire data system work. Just like us, they want relevant, reliable, and valid data. <br /><br />Our refusing "on principle" to participate is quickly going the way of the dinosaur. Some of us have been trying to expound on this for over a decade so it is a not a "new" situation. It's been a long time coming. <br /><br />It's possible to uphold an individual discipline's tenets and its academic rigor but it's up to us to work together to get from where we stand now to the translation phase required for funding not only our university but our own faculty positions. The current budget crisis everyone is now facing only makes this clearer as cutbacks will continue to be made and restoration of positions and funding will be different than the world we know today. <br /><br />Hooray for ADM for engaging an enlightening discussion about a controversial topic that needs to be examined well beyond semantics and reach the world of common goals that benefit not only our students but our profession.Kelly in Kansashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14345236866213138914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-10289093004434936032009-08-31T10:44:15.803-04:002009-08-31T10:44:15.803-04:00PS. Just going to vent, although actually it's...PS. Just going to vent, although actually it's only been *four* years of frustration, not six. This is what I want to scream at my dept:<br /><br />"We have a core curriculum. We ask our students to put a massive amount of trust in us. They turn over tons of autonomy to their professors. And yet, we can't even agree to talk about anything that might result in the least wee bit of compromise to *our* autonomy? That's unethical, bordering on criminal."dancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05560093455630610783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-89326675594954263812009-08-31T10:33:26.357-04:002009-08-31T10:33:26.357-04:00When we've talked about standard assignments, ...When we've talked about standard assignments, we've talked about things like "analysis of primary source"; or, perhaps, identifying an argument in an article. If we agree that these are things we want our students to be able to do, it stands to reason we have to make sure our students do them in the Lower division courses.Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09716705206734059708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-40532953942796734082009-08-31T10:14:44.523-04:002009-08-31T10:14:44.523-04:00Ditto, esp to point 5. Except perhaps not for stan...Ditto, esp to point 5. Except perhaps not for standardization of assignments--I'd be inclined to agree on a canon of skills and people can teach them however they want, and students can pick the section/assignments that suit best. Whether of not there is a canon of content should be up the department---but it should be discussed.<br /><br />I've been trying to get my department to just talk about what our core courses are supposed to be doing FOR SIX YEARS. They hear "Standardize!" when what I mean is "Communicate!" It's not fair to the students to be *pretending* there's a master plan that we don't tell them or our visiting instructors about. I mean, I think I'm in tune with the unspoken master plan, but hell if I really know.<br /><br />That's my major frustration with my department.<br /><br />I also think the system as a whole might be stuck with the Borg-style, unfortunately---I'm a fan of preemptive regulation. E.g., we'll do it our own way (like my random idea) which will produce numbers and data the admin can show off, and fend off critique. But having fetishized professorial autonomy over the least notion of "teaching as a community working toward a shared goal", profs sacrificed the chance to do it themselves, their own way.dancehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05560093455630610783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-47972057070964170422009-08-31T08:34:50.714-04:002009-08-31T08:34:50.714-04:00This is exactly what it feels like at our institut...This is exactly what it feels like at our institution: "The places where I've encountered something even in that realm are places where either the administration didn't take assessment seriously and are therefore cacking themselves because they have to try to come up with masses of data all at once..." <br /><br />As I wrote at Historiann's, we already have a review process in place, and it could probably be improved or adjusted and so forth to ensure that our student are getting exposed to a good education and that we can identify places where we can improve our own teaching. Our administration, however, implemented our plan to get numbers to feed the accrediting agency. So, it is an exercise in data production, not improved teaching and learning.Clio Bluestockinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14285486658334618048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-35975256135426590622009-08-31T00:23:26.521-04:002009-08-31T00:23:26.521-04:00What you are talking about here is, I think, asses...What you are talking about here is, I think, assessment done right. That is, it assumes we are mostly all professionals doing our job; the structure is needed less at the course level and more at the program level. That's where you can realize -- oh, we need to make sure every student knows how to do X, Y and Z before they hit the capstone course. <br /><br />Equally clearly, Clio B.'s outcomes assessment is not so grown up!Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09716705206734059708noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-4722354959549868602009-08-30T22:58:53.328-04:002009-08-30T22:58:53.328-04:00Oh -- another exception -- if a course is a gen ed...Oh -- another exception -- if a course is a gen ed, for example, everybody has to make sure the course addresses *those* outcomes. And we came up with three core types of assignments that demonstrate the skills we all think are essential, that would be used in all of our surveys, and then people can do what they want on top of them.Another Damned Medievalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05231085915472400163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-75621619478500091722009-08-30T22:46:18.260-04:002009-08-30T22:46:18.260-04:00I don't think they have to teach the exactly t...I don't think they have to teach the exactly the same thing, or in the same amounts, but I can't imagine *not* teaching Charlemagne at all :-)<br /><br />Sort of a, 'here are all the things the students should have heard of, and we'll cover them in the ways best suited to our own styles and specialties,' thing. I heard more about Barbarossa and the Crusades as a freshman from my modern Russianist prof than I have ever taught myself -- or than I learned at Beachy U! But the readings and the professors still talked about them to some extent. OTOH, I heard WAY more about the Angevin counts at Beachy U than I ever did as a grad student :-)Another Damned Medievalisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05231085915472400163noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3671815.post-61432886387965338082009-08-30T22:25:16.845-04:002009-08-30T22:25:16.845-04:00I actually agree with quite a lot of what you say ...I actually agree with quite a lot of what you say here - I <b>do</b> think thinking, collectively, about what we're doing (or you guys are doing, now ;-D) is useful - but myself? I <b>don't</b> think there is a canon, and I don't think there has to be a lot of consistency in the way people teaching different sections of the same course teach it. (With 2 caveats: if one section requires a lot more/less work than another, students will complain, which is problematic; and sometimes certain topics are required for, say, teacher certification programs.) I personally think it's perfectly fine if two people teach Western Civ completely differently, assuming they don't also teach it badly.<br /><br />(I mean, imagine my Doktormater and the early medievalist at my grad program each teaching the medieval quarter of a Western Civ survey. Doktormater got past Charlemagne by week 3; the early medievalist only made it to Charlemagne by about week 6 or 7, and spent at least a week on Charlemagne. Now, I don't entirely agree with the early medievalist's timeline, but I still don't think he and Doktormater had to teach the same thing.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com